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[types of games]

Genuine question here. Why is it that Miss Sarkeesian's videos are so easily misinterpreted by, what I could see, a major lot of people? I read/watched a bunch of lectures, thesis and research papers, also I checked - always out of curiosity - to see the reaction of the people when I could. So generally it's not something that happens with a well researched and constructed lecture - even a controversial one that touches the status quo. If the point and message of a lecture get mostly through to all parties (pro and detractors alike), it means it was correctly written. That's my personal observation though.
I'm rather confused (and probably naive) of the difference between the message that people seem to get and what Miss Sarkeesian actually says.

To answer your question, I think people project their own ideas about what she is saying based on knowing beforehand that she's a feminist and she's critiquing their one true love (gaming and gaming culture). It was very obvious to me this was the case when watching LimpingFish's video. There were a lot of points in which Thunderf00t's arguments boiled down to "some feminists say this, so this is what Sarkeesian thinks and says. She is so stupid". I think this is one of the reasons why this quote was misinterpreted so heavily in this thread:

While these types of games are a refreshing departure from the standard formula, and something I'd generally like to see more of, the focus is still squarely on the male characters and so at their core these games are really deconstructing the player's assumptions about the traditional hero archetype. A true subversion of the trope would need to star the damsel as the main playable character. It would have to be her story. Sadly, there are very few games that really explore this idea.

She is very clearly discussing the trope in this quote, not the heroine. Yet immediately people jump to the conclusion that Sarkeesian is saying Elaine Marley is not a strong female character because of this. I think people unconsciously do want to misunderstand and thus discredit her on some level, because she is criticizing something we hold very close to our hearts. I notice I had the same reaction to some of her critiques too. ("How can she say this about that game!? That was such a good game!")

Another quote from Sarkeesian:

This series will include critical analysis of many beloved games and characters, but remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects.

Yeah, I love this idea too! I'm totally interested (depending on the book). Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas for a specific book, but my personal genre favorites are fantasy and sci-fi. I've been meaning to read some Octavia Butler... maybe one of her books?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I&list=PLQJW3WMsx1q3BAZh3XsK1cSwCiaqjSulc

A counter-argument...of sorts.

Do you agree with this video, LimpingFish? Or are you playing devil's advocate?

Settlers of Cataaaaaaaan! \o/

[as one of the two playable protagonists]

Many people have noted factual errors in the stories she recounts. The main one I remember is her story of the development of StarFox Adventures being riddled with errors - the game was to have dual protagonists, and it was not co-opted into a new StarFox game because of 'fears gamers would not play a female protagonist' but simply because the StarFox creator liked the look of the game and wanted to put his own characters into it.

Hmmm, I went back to the first Damsel in Distress video to see if I could find what you were talking about, but I couldn't find anything in the video to back up what you were saying. In the video, she says the following:

Let's start with a story of a game that no one ever got to play. Back in 1999 game developer RARE was hard at work on a new original title for the Nintendo 64 called “Dinosaur Planet”. The game was to star a 16 year old hero named Krystal as one of the two playable protagonists. She was tasked with traveling through time, fighting prehistoric monsters with her magical staff and saving the world. She was strong, she was capable and she was heroic.

In addition to this, nowhere in the video does she say that this occurred because of "fears gamers would not play a female protagonist". She merely says Miyamoto joked that it would make a good third installment of Star Fox, and so development began.

Another one leaping to mind is her strange argument that Elaine Marley is not an example of a positive, feminist character because she is not a playable character. Elaine is one of my favourite characters in the world of gaming and could definitely carry her own game and is always both a feminine AND strong character. (The only time you can argue she wasn't was in COMI where she does genuinely need rescuing but it's due entirely to a bizarre set of circumstances that is 100% Guybrush's fault)

Again, here's all she says on this:

There is a clear difference between sexist parody and parody of sexism. Sexist parody encourages the players to mock and trivialize gender issues while parody of sexism disrupts the status quo and undermines regressive gender conventions. So for instance when wannabe pirate Guybrush Threepwood finally reaches the kidnapped Elaine Marley in the 1990 adventure game The Secret of Monkey Island, she already has a plan to escape and he ruins it with his attempt to rescue her. The joke ends up being directed at the protagonist, rather than making fun the damsel'ed woman... While these types of games are a refreshing departure from the standard formula, and something I'd generally like to see more of, the focus is still squarely on the male characters and so at their core these games are really deconstructing the player's assumptions about the traditional hero archetype. A true subversion of the trope would need to star the damsel as the main playable character. It would have to be her story. Sadly, there are very few games that really explore this idea.

I don't see anywhere in this where she is criticizing Marley for not being a positive, feminist character. She is saying that despite this being a game that breaks away from the "damsel in distress" trope, it is still a game centered around a male character that focuses more on deconstructing the player's assumptions of what a male hero should be. This is her interpretation at least, and we're welcome to disagree with her opinion on this. I do feel however, that you misrepresented what she said in her video a little.

One that really got me was using Hotline Miami is an example in her videos, as a 'damsel' that needs to be rescued and one that is 'killed off'. It doesn't make much sense aside from the most superficial level, where a guy rescues a woman at one point. Rescuing the woman is not the goal of the game (the level takes place near the start of the game and your assignment is actually to kill everybody in the house) You play a demented sociopathic killer who decides, seemingly arbitrarily to take mercy on the one character (who, yes, is the one female character in the game) It's worth noting that she doesn't express direct gratitude for the rescue - she stays in the hero's house since she apparently has nowhere else to go, but avoids him for half the missions and sleeps in another bed. She IS killed at the halfway point, but literally every single character in the game dies so using that as the basis for any claims of sexism in the game is ridiculous

I do actually agree with you on this. Having played Hotline Miami, I don't really think of it as a prime example of the "damsel in distress" trope, although I can see how it may be interpreted that way. I feel this one's a bit opinion-based though, and not really something one could use as a prime example of why Sarkeesian's videos are poorly constructed and researched.

But I think regardless you need to evaluate the role of males in a game's fictional world before condemning it's portrayal of women - some, in fact over the years probably most, games have simple, cartoonish visions of all humanity. Yes, in Double Dragon the girl exists purely to get punched in the stomach and kidnapped - but Jimmy and Billy Lee likewise exist solely to punch other men who look equally as lopsided and troglodytic as themselves. The recent Dragon's Crown has received a lot of attention for the Sorceress and Amazon models being grossly distorted and oversexualised, while the barbarian and dwarf models are just as bad.

I understand what you're saying here, but I think you're missing the point of her videos, which is to examine the tropes, plot devices and patterns within games pertaining to women specifically on a big picture scale. I don't really think deconstructing male roles within a few of the more cartoonish games she discusses pertains to the overall pattern of women's roles in video games.

I'm also slightly dubious about the 'massive campaign' against her. Maybe I stick to the more genteel areas of the internet, I don't know, but I've seen basically no abuse of Anita Sarkeesian. I've seen plenty of well constructed posts countering and debating things she has said and a couple of joke images (Her with some tangled up Christmas lights and a message saying "I bet the Patriarchy did this" - stuff like that) but nothing genuinely hateful. Due to the fact that she's done so much work disabling comments I can't evaluate for myself - I don't want to be unkind to her but I'm sceptical whenever somebody makes complaints about 'trolls' and 'abuse'. Having put up with plenty of abuse myself I have little patience for thin-skinned people and most people are prone to exaggerate the level of trolling around.

Again, sorry, I'm a little confused. Are you saying that because you haven't seen it in your circles, it doesn't exist? All this is documented on her website: http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/

Welcome to the internet Anita, you must be new here.

I can guarantee (using the same scientific backing as Anita's arguments) that Rebecca Black has got and will still get far more trolling than Anita.

Ignore it, move on, they'll grow up/get bored eventually. Making a page like that probably just spurs them on more.

I kinda agree with Myinah on this. By ignoring threats, you are indirectly sending the message that these threats are normal, acceptable and shouldn't be challenged. Ignoring problems don't make them go away.

Granted, but the line is prominently displayed twice before, both times featuring both quote marks. And the scripting tutorial builds on the main tutorial, which adds the line to its example script, also without the error.
So while the error should of course be corrected, only a braindead moron would go ahead and deliberately break an already working command like that, just because it suddenly has a quote mark less, especially if it's so obviously a mistake, right...?

You make it sound like the error is extremely well hidden and can only be overcome by exceptional powers of perception...

Ummm, wow, that was kind of dickish.

Welcome to the forums, djbriandamage! I'm sure one of the web people can correct this typo.

I tentatively disagree. She's high profile and people are aware of her, but her arguments are often poorly constructed and researched which is unfortunate. These are things that do deserve to be discussion points, but when she offers up extreme arguments that are easily countered (strawman arguments, if you will) it's difficult for her to be taken seriously by a lot of people.

People often say this. I really don't see it, but maybe I'm missing something. Could you give me some examples of which arguments you think are poorly constructed/researched?

I'm also slightly dubious about the 'massive campaign' against her. Maybe I stick to the more genteel areas of the internet, I don't know, but I've seen basically no abuse of Anita Sarkeesian. I've seen plenty of well constructed posts countering and debating things she has said and a couple of joke images (Her with some tangled up Christmas lights and a message saying "I bet the Patriarchy did this" - stuff like that) but nothing genuinely hateful. Due to the fact that she's done so much work disabling comments I can't evaluate for myself - I don't want to be unkind to her but I'm sceptical whenever somebody makes complaints about 'trolls' and 'abuse'. Having put up with plenty of abuse myself I have little patience for thin-skinned people and most people are prone to exaggerate the level of trolling around.

Again, sorry, I'm a little confused. Are you saying that because you haven't seen it in your circles, it doesn't exist? All this is documented on her website: http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/

[Step 1: Sketches and Preliminary Work!]

Ok! Step 1: Sketches and Preliminary Work!
A brief description of "The Far Corners of the World" from the game's AGS page:

    Young Jeffrey Carter has it all: a great flat, a good job and a beautiful (and rich) fiancee. One day however his peaceful life is turned upside down when he receives a mysterious message from
    his estranged sister. What starts as a journey to atone for past failings soon takes a sinister turn. Little does Jeff know that the adventure of his lifetime is about to begin... 


So after playing my game, I took some screenshots and gathered images from google/elsewhere that inspired me. The mood I'm trying to capture is semi-light-hearted, mysterious, character-oriented, and supernatural with a touch of ancient histories.



Random covers. Haven't played all these games, but some of the compositions were interesting...




Interesting composition that I tried to work into one of my preliminary sketches. Also references for important characters.




References for general colors and important characters.




I like the look of this disk, and it's extremely pivotal in the game, so I want to incorporate it into the game's logo.




Ideas for the game's logo scribbled on the back of an envelope.
I really liked the look of this secret language in the game, and thought it would be interesting to incorporate into the title.




Some preliminary box design sketches. By the end of the week, I want to throw some color into my two favorite designs and refine them a little and see how they look.

misery

Why not make Misery as a game? It won't need that many assets, and it's got enough meat to make loads of cool puzzles.

Wow, that would be the coolest game ever! Awesome idea!

Wow, it looks tons better!
I know you mentioned you were moving on to another room, but I'll post anyway. Feel free to disregard...
The only things I'd change are the light highlights on the floor (maybe diffuse the light a little to give the carpet texture) and the dark shadows on the floor in the foreground (or at least make them a much lighter shade). Maybe also lighten up those dark spots on the ceiling? Here's a quick, messy paint-over with the marquee tool, you'd probably want to make it prettier...

Armageddon, your pixel work is so clean and gorgeous!

I actually really like the colors. The only thing that looks really off to me is the lighting, especially on the ceiling. I'm not sure the lamps would actually project that much light onto the ceiling, and I think the ceiling's color would be a little more darker than the walls because of this. I know you want to keep it as clean and simple as possible, but I think you may have to add more gradients. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:



Hope this is helpful.

I think as far as Steam games go, I don't really care about getting all the achievements. In most cases, I feel like they're just big time-wasters and don't really add to the gameplay experience at all.

In an adventure game though, I think it could be a really cool replacement to the archaic "points system". If done right, I think it could be used as a more creative, visually stimulating way to motivate the player to complete side quests and explore the world more (in an already awesome adventure game). Instead of getting +2 points added to your numerical score, it would be awesome to receive cool-looking badges you could view on another menu. Just my opinion though, I'm not sure everyone would agree.

[Calin]

I think part of the problem with discussion oppression of a group with a bunch of people who are the (albeit unwilling) oppressors is that the oppression is simply invisible to them(us).

I think Calin brings up a really great point here. I think Myinah, might have brought it up too. The people who have privileges in our society usually don't even realize they have them. When we learn about it, we tend to dismiss it because it doesn't affect our lives or we've never seen any negative effects from it within our social circles. It's the same for me, too, in some respects. I am embarrassingly unaware of race issues most of the time because I'm whitebread and have never had to deal with any of the repercussions of being someone of color in the US.

Hahaha! Awesome!
I'm so glad my .gif inspired you!

[Myinah]

Myinah, I think all your posts in this thread pretty much mirror everything I'm thinking right now.

I've followed Anita Sarkeesian for a while. She does hold some pretty strong feminist views, and I don't absolutely agree 100% with everything she's said in her gaming videos. I think it's good to critically examine things you watch, however it's been a little painful to watch the ridiculously extreme criticism she's received for just about everything, including how she disabled comments on her youtube channel, used all the hate mail as a ploy for more Kickstarter money to get rich... I really don't understand why she upsets people so much. There are so many male game reviewers who are critical in the same way if not more (like Yahtzee, who I like), and yet I hear no criticism about them at all. It bothers me that we expect her to jump through all these additional hoops in order to garner any sort of respect (i.e. If she hates these games so much, why doesn't she just make her own game? If she hates these games so much, just don't play them, etc...)

Why can't we all just watch these videos as is, take a little from them we find interesting/insightful, and then move on? Why do we see these videos as an attack on who we are as gamers, but don't have this same reaction when we watch Zero Punctuation?

Damn though, if that guy's chin doesn't look like a pair of hairy balls...

At first I thought you meant Gaiman. 

Hahahaha! No, the painted guy on the website.

I can't believe I never saw this thread before! Utterly dumbfounded by everybody's projects!

Especially MattFrith's (although I've seen it all on Tumblr already ), Kastchey's, and ThreeOhFour's, omigod.

Impressive and moving. I hope I'm that productive when I'm old.

The game concept sounds pretty awesome, and I love Neil Gaiman. Damn though, if that guy's chin doesn't look like a pair of hairy balls...