Natural Medicine vs. Drugs

[Sylpher]

I have always had vitamins and herbs around me ever since my childhood. My grandmother, being an herbalist, always has some crazy plant or salve to help with some health problem with anyone in our family. The interesting thing is that in her 60's she has cancer and she is probably the healthiest person I know. Just recently she tore down a few walls in her home and completely renovated it. Mostly by herself!

This, however, is not a thread about my grandmother with super hero like qualities. I woke up a bit early this morning [special thanks to my roommate and his girlfriend who have no concept of other people] and unable to fall back asleep I did the usual flip through channels and look for something just interesting enough to watch but just boring enough to put yourself to sleep and I settled on some guy talking about his book.

That guy would be Kevin Trudeau (Book). I have heard and known some pretty radical naturalists. So I was ready to label him nutty and move on but I think his points about the drug and food industry in America, some obvious some I didn't know, are valid and really just plain sad.

You can here about some of these topics anywhere from political bands to extremist rallies but I present them for the basis of discussion.

The drug industry is not interested in cures. Healthy people don't need drugs. According to Kevin there is a natural and simple cure to Diabetes which is not allowed to be advertised and even published in articles about because the FDA will close whatever business responsible for distributing and advertising the product (which would at that point have to be considered a drug by law). Insulin companies would go bankrupt. Simple drugs that help you cope with diabetes would become worthless and basically money lost and jobs sacrificed.

[Something I never noticed going back to things being considered drugs]. If you buy vitamins or minerals you will notice that no advertising on the bottle (or advertising on television) will be found about what that vitamin or mineral will cure for you. If a company states that something cures you of some ailment it is considered a drug and will be shut down for not having a drug license.

The food industry puts additives in foods [not just fast food joints] that make you hungry. That make you addicted to the food and that make you fat. Foods labeled as diet foods actually starve you and just make you hungrier. Meat and Dairy products so filled with hormones and disease that is has to be ground up beyond recognition and better be sure you cook it well done so you don't get sick sick sick. But it is okay if you do happen to get sick.. They got a drug for you too!

Simple health problems being labeled as 'diseases' so drugs can be prescribed to not cure.. Only help you live with them. Example: Acid Reflux Disease.. For us regular people? Heart burn. You can easily find a handful of commercials on American TV of some pill or aid for heart burn. The simple truth, according to Kevin, is that your body is just not producing enough acid in your stomach. You eat something and your stomach needs to digest it so it starts producing acid like crazy and works its way up your esophagus.. Producing an acid burn. The cure is simple.. Get your body to produce acid in a normal amount and at a normal rate. The drugs however just cause your body to control acid right then and there so unless you change your diet you will be taking those drugs until the day you die.. It isn't a disease it is a bad diet. [Apparently a teaspoon of vinegar every few days and cutting/adding some foods in your diet will fix 'Acid Reflux Disease' don't let Tums know]

Speaking of drug advertisements.. Why on earth are there even drug advertisements? If you are sick you go to a doctor and he diagnoses you and prescribes something or cuts something out of you. Ever notice how many drug commercials end with "ask your doctor about __(Insert some wacky spin off a medical drug term name)___ today". Who died and made you a doctor? You really feel confident enough to diagnose yourself to go to a trained 'professional' and say you want this drug that you saw on TV?

Diet, depression, migraines, STD's... they got a pill to help you 'cope' with all of them and they can be found on primetime television.

It is hard to picture companies and governmental departments that sit and engineer ways to make people just sick enough to live but still need drugs.Ã,  As well that any food manufacturer would be allowed to knowledgably put additives in foods to make you hungry and addicted. Then again.. Smoking is legal and being gay is not so.. God bless America?

[DGMacphee]

I once attended a seminar led by a friend who is a chiropractor. He basically said the same stuff as the author you mentioned, Sylph.

He did this little test regarding muscle strength by choosing an audience member, test their muscles, make them drink some Coke, and then test their muscles again. They all had some muscle weakness after drinking the Coke.

Same thing happens when the physical nature of the body is unbalanced (e.g. bad posture).

Also, on the topic of health, here's an interesting news story I found amidst all the Aussie election stuff: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1216687.htm

[Sylpher]

I have heard the HIV theory before. I have just been waiting for someone with some viable proof. If not that at least a theory that makes sense considering most of what I have found has been.. Look at how many people are dying in Africa! It had to be created! The same logic has been applied to Sept. 11th with theories that it was staged/allowed by the government for a reason to go to war. Give the proof not radical theories..

I think a more believeable theory is that it wasn't created just discovered and unleashed in a malicious manner. Then again I am open to all theories.. just really focus on ones that make sense.

Edit:
Oh yeah I know of that test. Can't recall the name right now but I remember getting something similair done by a chiropractor and him concluding that I need an adjustment. I have my own reasons for why but I declined and just stopped drinking soda.. Viola!

[Andail]

Hm, DG, that kind of demonstrations should be handled with great care. The psychological impact on muscle strength is quite astounding. Especially in front of an audience, where people often do what's expected of them.

I've been subject to experiments where a person trained in psychology and therapy has made me feel much weaker when for instance raising my arm etc.
And I still consider myself a person of high mental stability, and I'm also a sceptic by nature.

I'm not saying coke is good for you, it's most surely devastating for your health, I just wanted to share some experiences.

[DGMacphee]

Yes, she doesn't give much proof. But I just found it interesting the theory comes from a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

Andail: Aye, I can see where you're coming from. Then again, the whole idea behind chiropractic health is relieving stress from physical, chemical, and emotional aspects of a person's life. There's better research than the examples I've given. But like you, I'm just drawing on personal experience.

[Blackthorne]

Look, I'd say I'd like to believe in Natural Medicine,

but having a transplanted Kidney means I'm on approimately 12 different drugs, and about 25 pills a day now.  There's no real natural solution to dead kidney's; they don't grow back by homeopathic methods, allthough I wish to god they did.  The only option I had is to get a transplanted one, and now I'm a swimming pool of drugs.

So I straddle a tough line on this one.  Drugs keep me alive... and that's how I'll have to live the rest of my life.

Bt

[Andail]

Damn, Blackthorne, that's sad to hear

Taking so much medicine in your age can't be good in the long run, I hope you can get rid of them as soon as possible. When you're well again, of course.

[Pesty]

I personally think natural medicine deserves more credit than it's given. Although I take several drugs for various ailments, I've always been against using them. Why? Well, now, gather 'round and I'll tell you.

Back in the early '90s my family lived in Ohio. My poor mother, who's suffered health problems all her life, got pneumonia so bad that the coughing broke two of her ribs. Some doctor of her's prescribed Gentamicin, an anti-biotic that was growing in popularity. After taking it for a while, the pneumonia cleared up, but things got worse for her. She was gradually losing her sense of balance completely and she had no idea why. Nor did any doctors. After spinal taps and other extreme tests, there still was no clear conclusion. She felt like she was going insane. Years later, it was discovered that her vestibular nerve was destroyed by the Gentamicin. She no longer has any sense of balance at all. For years she was unable to walk without support, whether it be one of us or her cane. Because she's amazingly tough, she can now get around with no visible balance problem. And she's not the only one that was affected this way by gentamicin. Here's just one of many support groups that are for these poor people: http://www.wobblers.com/

Where am I going with this story? Just making a point that man-made drugs can do a lot of good, but they can also destroy someone's life in the blink of an eye. I trust herbs and natural medicines far more than I do manufactured ones now.

Edit: There's also a book called Bitter Pills: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/055337852X/qid=1097354446/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-1865943-4565745?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 that's partially about the author's wife's reaction to gentamicin. It's an interesting read.

[Pelican]

I suffer from migraines, but whenever I go to my GP, he just prescribes stronger painkillers for me and sends me on my way. I've had migraines for most of my life, so by this point, I on the strongest painkillers you can buy over the counter, and half the time they don't even work. If I have time, I usually just take a nap, because the darn things just make me so drowsy, that I want to sleep anyway. I really don't like taking any sort of medication, because as some of you were saying; who knows what side effects it has other than the obvious?

I also managed to discover that I get more migraines when I'm stressed, so I've concentrated on doing something about the things that stressed me out, and what do you know? I get much less migraines. Good thing too, 'cos the painkillers he prescribed are bloody expensive. Stupid doctors.

[Sylpher]

Pesty:
Sorry to hear that. Glad she is doing, overall, better. Something sort of similair happend to my mom. She had a root canal done on one of her eye teeth. The dentist damaged the nerve and they believe that it triggered her MS symptoms.

Blackthorne:
Natural medicine isn't a cure all and if the general impression being given off is that drugs and doctors are evil then I am sorry. I have very much respect for doctors and researchers but still.. Your kidney problem may have been preventable if treated naturally before a transplant was nessicary. Hard to say not knowing anything about your condition but I think it is just a matter of understanding that every health issue should be hanlded with care and not just handed over to a doctor and say "fix me".

Pelican:
Not to pimp the guys book, considering I have never read it and can't really give an opinion on it, but he did talk about migraines a lot in the interview. Might be worth your while to pick it up and see what ideas he has. Drugs are expensive, like you said, so if a simple book for 20 bucks has a cure I'd say it is worth it.

[Renal Shutdown]

Okie Dokie.  This might not be too liked, but it's my opinion on the whole medicine/drugs thing, and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to flip flop somewhere down the line, as I've had plenty of time to think it thru.

Natural Medicines.
I'm fine with the whole "take this to improve this" way of doing things in so much as diets.  If it'll make you healthier before a disease comes, your body's likely to stand a better chance of fighting it.  I'm not so keen on vitamins and stuff, because, with a healthy diet, you shouldn't need to take them.  For example, quinine tablets are available to help stop things like cramp.  However, rather than go out and buy pills, my Grandad just drinks a glass of indian tonic water every few days.  It has the same effect, but it's just a drink he likes the taste of and not a set of pills.  He has oranges for breakfast instead of taking Vitamin C tablets.  He has wholegrain bread instead of taking a magnesium supplement.  He's in fine health (except he somehow broke a rib vacuuming), he's in his 80's, and he still works as a part time accountant.

Drugs.
My nan, on the other, has had a diet of junk food and sweets for years.  She'd never even eaten a carrot until my mum had cooked one for her.  She's either overweight or really thin depending on how ill she is, straying from one to another without settling.  She has mild diabetes.  She has trouble walking up stairs.  She needs a walking stick when out, but is far to stubborn to use one.  She takes a whole bunch of pills to deal with blood pressure, the diabetes, and a few over things.  Then she has to take other pills to deal with the side effects of those.

Looking at the ways of doing things, I'd much rather choose my Grandad's way.  The whole "prevention is the best cure" way.

However, here's where my opinions go a little radical.  Supposing I had a chest infection.  Common in my Nan's side of the family, and I've always had weak lungs.  The doctor would probly prescribed a course of anti-biotics.  Now, if you start taking them, it's imperitive that you finish the set course.  Penicillin is becoming less and less effective at fighting disease because of this.  For example, Person A contracts Disease B.  He takes a two week course of anti-biotics, but after the first week, he feels fine.  So, he stops taking the drugs.  However, the disease is still there, and what's left of it fights back against the poorly reinforced anti-biotics.  After a while, Shazam, disease B mutates into C, and disease C is immune to those anti-biotics.  Person A then passes C to person D.  Person D takes the same anti-biotics, but is ill for the full two weeks.  The A-B's haven't worked, his body has had to fight the disease on it's own.  All because person A couldn't follow simple instructions.

This could all happen, assuming I went to the doctor in the first place.  Which I wouldn't.  I'd let my body fight the chest infection on it's own.  Sure, I'll be ill for a week longer, but in the long run my body will be stronger.  If I turn to taking drugs everytime I'm ill, my immune system will get gradually weaker in each occurance, like my Nan's.  If she has a common cold, she'll see the doctor.

Now. To my own personal story.  For several years, I collapsed at random.  Unconcious.  Sure, the idea of walking along one minute and then the next thing you know you're climbing out of a hedge in someone's front garden might seem like fun, but it gets really boring after a while.  At one point, I was collapsing three times a day.
The doctors sent me for tests, found nothing and then passed me to a colleague to have a go.  This lasted for a good four years.  They also tried giving me various diet changes and various drugs to try.  Usually it was epilepsy drugs.  Oddly enough, epilepsy was one of the first things they ruled out.
Their last brainwave was either Parkinsons disease (I'm apparently to young to be tested for it), Brain Damage of the Subcortal Matter (this was from some random chinese tester), and finally the most plausible, Transient Ischemic Attacks (which has no way of being tested unless I spend a week hooked up to a monitor).  I've been waiting for about three years for the monitoring thingy, but they kept saying "Oh, sorry.  We have got any beds available at the moment, you'll have to make another appointment".  Wizz Bang, six month waiting list for the test, and I'm sent to the back of the queue everytime.
Transient Ischemic Attacks (TIA), is basically a stroke.  Same stuff, just not permanent.  It means I'll probly get a full stroke in later life.
Anyhow, with the six month waiting list, the incompetent doctors, and the fact that the most likely problem doesn't actually have a cure, I thought to myself; "F*ck it.  I'll just get on with my life".

And so, to my point.  In a roundabout kinda way.  Now, if I get ill, I'll let my body deal with it.  I'm not going to use medicine or doctors again.  I've had a headache for the last seven years, 24/7.  It's worse every day and no painkiller they've given me has had any kinda effect on it.  So, I thought "why should I bother taking them?".  Couldn't think of a reason other than for recreational use.  Same as cough mixture.  If I have a cough, I won't drink it, but I will drink it at other times for fun.  That's the only point in medicine.  Fun.  I'll let my body do the work against illness, since it will be tougher after.

There are however exceptions to this rule.
The most relevent to me, is of a friend of mine.  He's been diagnosed as schizophrenic.  I'm all for his medicine, as without it he is likely to hurt either himself or others.  Situations like this I feel are ok for drugs to be used medicinally.
I'm also all for the recreational use of drugs.

It's the fight disease way I believe to be wrong, as it makes a person weaker.  I'd rather let nature run it's course and see if the body is strong enough to fight it on it's own.  You see, since I got ill, I started to think about things.  To me, man isn't at the top of the food chain.  Disease is.  Nature does use technology to kill, so why should we?  It's kinda my views on animal rights gone a little too far, but I stand by it.

As for things like surgery, I don't mean to offend you BT, but I personally would not have accepted an organ.  If something has to be removed, like an appendix, or a lung or a leg, then fine.  I'm opposed to the replacing of things, as to me, it seems unnatural.
My final point, altho a little off topic, is one of resussitation.  There's been a court case in the UK recently where parents were trying to fight to keep their daughter alive, even tho she was born severely premature, and in very poor health.  The case got me to thinking about ressusitation in general, something I've never really thought about much in the past.
After considering my stance on medicine in general, and my views on life itself, I came to a conclusion.  Personally, I'm against any form of resussition, at any age in life.  The idea seems unnatural to me.  It's not in a religious way either, as I have my own beliefs not involving a deity.  It's just seems wrong that when animal in a desert dies, it dies.  But when a human dies, he or she should get a second chance.  Again, this has an exception tho.  That being when someone dies as a result of another human's intentional actions, ie: murder.  If it was accidental, then I'm against it.  I know this was off-topic, but I'd like to get other's opinions on it, and it seemed more appropiate to add it here than to make an entire thread on it.

I'm truely sorry if my opinions have offended anyone, but I can't help the way I feel.

[Blackthorne]

Blackthorne:
Natural medicine isn't a cure all and if the general impression being given off is that drugs and doctors are evil then I am sorry.

Oh, no offence taken at all Sylpher - I was just saying that I'm stuck in a weird place; because I like natural medicine and more homeopathic ways of dealing with things.  But I know I can't do that with my case, at least for my kidneys!  And to Andail, I have to take these pills for the rest of my life, or my kidney will reject as my immune system will attack it, causing it to die.  So I'm stuck on a hoard of pills for the rest of my life.   Hopefully different methods of transplantation will be discovered in my lifetime, though.


Bt

[c.leksutin]

Brilliant topic Sylpher!

I was raised on a farm where we grew/raised all of our food, from corn to beef to apples to pork,  all without chemicals or hormones added.  I credit this  for never being over weight and only getting sick twice a year (at the change from the colder months to the warmer ones and vice-versa).  I am of the mind that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I am also of the mind that more then half of the problems that they now make drugs to "control" can be treated in other, more hollistic ways or simply avioded altogether my just listening to your body and being aware of what you eat.  I belive your mind and body require a certain balance to function at it's best, food and drug companies aren't interested in balance, they're interested in profit which goes hand in hand with our moddern cutures interest in convenience.  Here in the US, obiesity has been labled an eppidemic, heart desiese and high blood pressure are two main causes of death.  These things are easilly aviodable but can be difficult to reverse once you've gotten them.

On the reverse side of this coin, there are things that we need modern medicine for.  My brother is alive today because of the work of large pharmacutical companies and reasearch hospitals.  Blackthorn's story is another perfect exsample of why I'm thankfull for our abillity to see beyond what's placed infront of us by the natural world for medical technology, and why I have to whole heartedly disagree with Iqu's Darwinistic views on this matter.


C.

[Evil]

I've got acid reflux. I went to a doctor for it and they gave me some really expensive pills that didnt really work. I tried the vinger thing, tums, and I started to just deal with the pain. Eventually I found some really cheap pills at a local drug store, even cheaper then tums. I cant recall the name of them, but they're produced by the Osco Jewel Drug Company. They work like magic.

If you look at all of these cheaper drugs, they dont have the additives to them that make people additiced and whatnot. They only contain the important ingredients.

I've never been a fan of the herbal stuff myself. Mostly because I used to date a valcre or whatever they are. People in her family were really heathly but when people got really sick they would only give them herbal stuff and do rituals. Some of them ended up dying because of it, because her family wouldnt take them to see specialists. Thats very stupid in my opnion.

[Renal Shutdown]

..and why I have to whole heartedly disagree with Iqu's Darwinistic views on this matter.

Looking over my post, it does seem too Darwinistic.  I didn't mean for it to be "survival of the fittest".  It was meant as more of a dislike of what seems unnatural.  Unnatural to my personal system of beliefs, at any rate. 

Your point about living on the farm, with organic food is a better example, no man-made chemicals and such, being better than the "pretty" foods they sell now, with all apples having to look large and shiny.  It's the usually the smaller, somewhat disfigured fruit that both tastes better and is a healthier option.

Over the years I've been leaning more and more to a Mother Nature inspired way of thinking.  There'll probly come a time when I renounce technology completely, and start living in a cave.

[Sylpher]

Iqu:
No need to apologieze for your opinions but I do have to disagree with some of them.

I'm glad your grandad is in good health but as a reason why pure vitamins and minerals are important, rather then just getting them in a diet, is some vitamins and minerals block each other or make it difficult to absorb. I can't think of any examples (I know Iron has a big one) but if you are eating bread and it has butter it is possible something in the butter is preventing your body from absorbing a mineral you think you are getting in the bread. [This is not a real example just something off the top of my head]

This is why sometimes you need to take vitamins and minerals purely.. even with combonations of others to help your body absorb them.

This page has a good list of what things don't mix well with others and what foods you should avoid eating with certain things.. http://www.wizardofvitamins.com/

"Iron should be taken separately from the following medicaions, as they may inhibit absorptions. Antibiotics in the tetracycline or quinolone (Floxin, Cipro) families, ACE inhibitors, levodopa, methyldopa, carbidopa, penicillamine, thyroid hormone, calcium, soy, zinc, copper, or manganese."

So my theory of bread and butter can be true. If the butter contains a high amount of calcium and you are eating natural wheat bread in hopes of gaining Iron (I believe wheat bread contains Iron.. not sure). Then you are not gonna be getting much if any Iron.. Due to the calcium.


Transplants and not wanting to take place in things you consider 'unnatural' is fine. It is your choice really. I don't see the logic that if a perfectly good kidney from one of your family members could be donated and you both live and lead normal healthy lives from that point on but you would rather die. I mean.. it is your choice.

As for the rest. I think many people run to get help (pain dulling medicine) with sickness a bit quickly in our society. I, generally, let common colds and flus run their course and just rely on an assortment of vitamins and eating as healthy as I can while they are around. I haven't taken medicine/drugs for common sickness in many, many years.

But I think ruling out all medicine and all doctor aid and just letting whatever happens happen is silly. I have my problems with doctors as much as the next person (With family problems with doctors much like Pesty's). I am not gonna just totally kick them to the curb and say everything they have to say is worthless I would rather just sit and die if that is what nature wants of me.

Just my opinion though.

[Babar]

Very interesting topic. My thoughts on the matter:
Of course, it is better  to live a healthy life from the start then to do what you want and then take medicine for it. Also, I find it very wrong to take medicine's just for the heck of it (like sleeping drugs and such). Iqu, I respect your views, but when a there is a choice between death and life, where life can only be achieved, by these medicines, most people will put their personal beliefs aside and choose life.
My father has this problem with medicines. After he has been prescribed them by the doctor, and completed the course, he stores the medicine. When he feels he has the same problem, he takes the same medicine again, EVEN if it is expired.  He does the same with anti-biotics, which infuriates me, for reasons explained by Iqu. I had to throw away a whole cabinet full of medicines when he was gone.
However, both my parents suffer from some chronic disease. My father also has the acid reflux problem, and until recently he was taking some expensive medicine for it. He then got this book "Fit for life" by some Dr. Diamond, which told him he should not mix his food groups, something like what Sylpher said. It works great, and he has not had problems for a while. On the downside, though, whenever he gives in, and mixes up something like beef and potatoes, he suffers more than he used to. I guess his body got used to being pampered.
My mother has pollen and dust allergy. She has not been able to smell anything for almost a year. The dust is not so bad, but every year, when the paper mulberry pollen is in the air, she really has it bad. Her eyes sink in, her nose swells, and she has fits of coughing and sneezing. Medicine had little effect. She even went to this herbalist, who gave her some "plant extract" that completely cured her, but she stopped taking it when she had it tested and found out it was chock full of steroids. Now, the only way she can be helped is by going to the polluted city every year at the time, where there is little pollen.

[Mr_Frisby]

I'm totally supportive of herbal remedies - easier for your body to deal with and less side effects (if taken properly). They don't cure everything but what they do cure they cure betterer.

[juncmodule]

Mind over matter.

That's my belief. So, I agree with everyone! Whatever you believe will heal you, will. Of course there are limitations to this. You have to be getting the basics from somewhere. You can't sit around and eat Doritos all day and expect to fight off disease. I usually just wait out sickness or pain. Usually some Ibuprofin gets me through the pain. Other than that I have taken medicine one other time in the past 8 years. I don't count vitamins or prozac in that though. I have taken this road more out of lack of choice than choice. I cannot afford medical insurance and I'm afraid of free clinics. So unless if something is REALLY wrong I won't be going to the doctor anytime soon. I think that's the only time for a doctor, when something keeps you from going through daily life. I don't mean a little discomfort either, I mean something that STOPS you. Using doctors for small things is what leads to addictions and worse problems latter.

On the heartburn thing. I get it pretty bad, I have paid attention to when I get it though and know when to expect it. If people would just change their eating habits then they would be fine. Americans are especially stupid and stubborn though. They eat Taco Bell, get heartburn, and scream "oh my god! I've got acid reflux disease!!!!1!!!!". For me the solution is milk. One glass of milk "puts the fire out" for me. So when I do get stupid and eat something that I know will give me heartburn, I just make sure I've got some milk nearby.

later,
-junc

[Babar]

For me the solution is milk. One glass of milk "puts the fire out" for me. So when I do get stupid and eat something that I know will give me heartburn, I just make sure I've got some milk nearby.

Hehe.... I think you are going to draw out shbaz with that comment. He is almost as heated about milk as he about blender