Tropes vs Women

[Anian]

Men want these types of games (mostly young men) because that's what interests them. Although I have no desire to play Lollipop Chainsaw, but I do see the sexual appeal. A few days ago I played Hunted: Demon's Forge. I actually played as the female, only because she was the archer type while he was the hack and slash type - which is more fitting of my gameplay style. I ended up quite enjoying every sexual pose she did as she squeezed between tight areas, or slowly lowers and raises her ass as she ducks under stuff. It made it a very enjoyable bonus.

The problem becomes when it ends with you saying "Yes, I played Demon's Forge" and then only mention that way the woman moved between rocks, as the memorable part.

[Calin Leafshade]

I actually couldn't tell if RyanTimothy's post was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek or not.

[Myinah]

Speaking as a female gamer, and one who likes to play serious titles, the whole making games specifically for women thing isn't what is needed really as Calin suggests.

Ryan said he enjoyed the bonus of the female protagonist in Hunted, however as a woman who enjoys a huge variety of video games I would have been really disappointed to see yet another sexualised female protagonist. I want the immersion experience in video games too, and I'm telling you if I was going into battle I'm not going in wearing a chain mail bikini, bending over, groaning and giggling every time I perform an action. I'm going in practical armour, and I'm going in with my brain functioning.

Femshep from Mass Effect was a brilliant character. She could have scars, she wore practical armour, she had a realistic body, she was just an exceptional character, and I think it's largely because they didn't bring arbitrary gender stereotypes into it. I mean sure they had female characters who were a bit OTT when it came to sex,(I dont have a problem with sexy men or ladies in games as long as there is some equality) but femshep was a character that allowed me to have a total immersion  experience in a game.

I'm not some special snowflake standing alone here either. My friends game, and we want to get excited about the new games coming out too that all you guys are excited about. We aren't any different. We play the same blockbuster games as you, but we walk away with a lesser experience because we have to watch our gender fail at the most basic of tasks, or become sexual fantasies. I mean why couldn't one of the GTA V characters be a woman? Why do we only see npc tropes? I'm not saying men wouldn't benefit from a few less gender stereotypes either, but this is mainly focussing on women. I mean when you think about Guybrush, he anything but a male power fantasy and he's one of the most beloved characters.

This picture has been floating around on Tumblr recently and it does show the lack of diversity in female characters excluding hair and skin tone (although the race issue is something else rather prevalent too.)



I guess I have a lot of strong feelings on this subject because I strongly identify as a gamer and know many other women who do too, and so getting the argument of "Women aren't playing games, if they did maybe it would change" really irritates me. We do game, we have gamed, nothing changes. If we don't complain will things change? Probably not. And maybe more women would play if we were represented as actual people. It's a chicken and egg scenario because more women would game if games represented women properly, but they are saying they wont make them unless women play games? And these same people say they cant make games like that because men wont want to play a female character who isnt a naked contortionist but fail to understand why women don't want to play a roided up guy who saves a half naked blow up doll? It's a frustrating situation and I think its just pandering, easy money, and lazy writing that win 9/10.

Hopefully people can understand where I'm coming from and I'm sorry if this seems a bit ranty! Don't even get me started on impractical armour because I could go on for days lol.
 

[selmiak]

But there are indeed examples of other women physical aspects in games...

[kconan]

It's a frustrating situation and I think its just pandering, easy money, and lazy writing that win 9/10. 

  I don't think it will change for the mainstream games until game publishers and developers can no longer make the easy money of off portraying women as hourglass voluptuous, or they see - and it has to hit them in the face and not be seen as a risk - an opportunity to make more money by doing less of that and making changes like adjusting armor to be more practical for women.  For the major game companies, I don't imagine a cigar-chomping, knuckledragger CEO swilling beer in one hand while doing hammer curls in the other as he barks orders at a bunch of frat guy developers.  I think it comes down to easy money with less risk. 

  The bottom line has to be affected in terms of direct sales or a developer seeing the success of more practical armor in another game and understanding that this is money left on the table.  That Lollipop Chainsaw game, unfortunately, rewarded the developer with record sales.

[Calin Leafshade]

I don't understand why you keep on bringing up this stuff about publishers and the money they make. It's a fairly obvious fact that I don't think anyone disputes.

The whole point of grass roots efforts like that of Ms. Sarkesian is to change public opinion and thus make such games unpalatable to consumers and thus un(less)profitable. If some of the few people in charge of such things also take notice then thats a bonus but it's hard to get someone to act against their own interest.

I don't think anyone really thinks that game makers themselves are intrinsically misogynist but rather that the society to which they pander is.

If I'm honest, the larger problem with game production is the lack of auteur driven development. Products designed by committee will naturally veer towards the norm, the safe, the status quo. And the norm is currently (and probably always will be) hostile to certain groups.

[kaput]

Whether you agree with Anita or not,  her decision to disable comments on her videos after being publicly funded to make them was/is a pretty 'meh' thing to do. Telling people how it is and closing off any chance of a debate is not the logical nor the mature way forward imo. Sure, she is likely to receive some bad comments but this also stops those who agree with her to share their thoughts, too. She has put herself on a public platform and should be scrutinised just like everybody else. I'm not saying she is wrong in her beliefs, she makes some valid points - I just feel that the conversation shouldn't be so one sided. Maybe I am wrong? I'm glad she's passionate about the whole thing, it's good to be passionate about something.

That said, if you actually examine the types of games that are uber popular these days, one would see that this trope is becoming almost irrelevant in areas of modern gaming. Just last year, the best selling console games were sport games, racing games and fps games - all of which do not tend to follow the damsel in distress trope. But no one seems to be discussing why most if not all of these fps games are based around American troops warring with the middle east, or why most if not all sports games only include male sport teams. That, to me, is a much more relevant discussion in modern day culture. We can examine as much as we like the misogynistic Marios or the satirical Duke Nukems (which by the way is a parody in itself), but the real issue, if you are desperate to look for one, is war and not only it's increasing prevalence in games, but the glorifying of it. I'd be much more worried about a desensitized nation than a bunch of "nerds" playing Super flamin' Mario.

I really try not to hold so much of a strong opinion on this matter, if hold one at all. Just thought I'd 'add' to this here debate. I like playing games. Of course there are games I think are shit - I just will not buy them. There will always be silly games. Don't like them? Don't play them. Yay for freedom of speech.

ps - I only use the word nerds subjectively. No offense, nerds 

pps - Don't let your kids play pacman - they'll only become wife beaters for it!!1

ppps - I'm joking.

[xil]

Am I the only one who thought these videos were well thought out, raised a good point, but were, really, really, boring and drawn out?

I think the fact that games are made to fit a market is sort of missing the point (sorry kconan), because surely it's the fact they are made to fit a market which doesn't understand that they are having games made to 'fit' them that is the issue.

e.g. If these videos were shown to all gamers, a lot might think to themselves "Oh yea, I have been playing horribly sexist games and never realised!". Which in turn might change the way they think about/buy games in general, which in turn might make developers develop games with a larger variety of tropes/stories/etc?

However, I think there should be a video which is more of a summary, that highlights the main points and the main games which are either side of the spectrum. Once the user has watched this more 'accessible' version of the argument, then the three videos that are currently available could be extra reading and a more in-depth version of the argument.

P.S. I must be a rare breed of 'man/bloke/male/etc' as I just really don't care about tropes and blah blah blah blah blah. If a game is/looks fun and enjoyable, I will buy it and I will play it. I really liked Beyond Good and Evil, what an awesome game, I also really like Zelda. I played Mass Effect 1 as a female, I played the second as a male, I could go on but I understand this is more about the mass market.

[kaput]

Am I the only one who thought these videos were well thought out, raised a good point, but were, really, really, boring and drawn out?

They were boring and drawn out. You're not the only one 

a market which doesn't understand that they are having games made to 'fit' them that is the issue.

That's the thing - is it that they do not understand, or is it that they do not care? I'd go for the latter. It wouldn't really be all that fair to assume that people have been 'brainwashed' into playing these games. That's probably one of Anita's flaws - she gives gamers an overwhelming lack of credit. It's that Mario nostalgia for some, too, right? Maybe these games are making a come back eg super meat boy because some folks just like playing games reminiscent of the old Mario ones. She even admits herself that they're mostly copycat games.

I really liked Beyond Good and Evil, what an awesome game

Omgzorz how can you like that game that portrays men as pigs?!

I must be a rare breed of 'man/bloke/male/etc' as I just really don't care about tropes

Nah, it's not rare - that's why so many people actively disagree with her. Which brings us back to 'a large group of people just don't give a damn'.

[Calin Leafshade]

Part of my problem with Sarkesian's videos is that they are about tropes.

Tropes are essentially "units" of story information. Stories have to be succinct and so they can't explain everything in detail.

So when a writer uses a trope he is basically saying "this part of the story is not that important, so I'm using this trope as a thing you can latch onto, understand and categorize very quickly so as not to waste time with it"

These tropes have been formulated over, quite literally, thousands of years and without them it would be almost impossible to tell a story. Tropes are not the problem here. The problem is that the tropes we have are androcentric and one-sided. I don't personally believe there is anything wrong with the damsel in distress, for instance, as a plot device. It conveys meaning to the audience quickly and can be elided when not that important.

Sarkesian's (and other's) mistake is to assume that tropes are the problem and they represent lazy story telling which I think fundamentally misunderstands what a trope is and its purpose.

[kconan]

e.g. If these videos were shown to all gamers, a lot might think to themselves "Oh yea, I have been playing horribly sexist games and never realised!". Which in turn might change the way they think about/buy games in general, which in turn might make developers develop games with a larger variety of tropes/stories/etc?

That's an optimistic viewpoint, and it might work for some of the older male gamers.

For me personally as a gamer, I get tired of the lazy and unoriginal storytelling that goes hand-in-hand with most of these kind of games.   

[Myinah]

I want to point out Anita did not disable comments to stifle debate, she disabled them because the comments become a breeding ground for death and rape threats against her. She has had a video game beat em up made of her just for daring to open the kickstarter for these videos.

She's not making these videos to say "I am the authority on this issue, that's it, no one talk about it anymore. *mic drop*" But in all seriousness when are youtube comments a place for serious debate? They aren't the best forum for a real discussion. If we want to debate the videos we can, just like we are right now in this forum. Reddit will have been debating the videos I'm sure.

I agree her delivery can be a little monotonous and patronizing, but she's clearly explaining concepts to people that may have never heard anything like this in their lives. Her videos are also designed to be used in a classroom setting or as a teaching aid for parents and kids. They aren't flashy, but they are rich in content and easy to pause and explain and so it makes more sense when you view them as a teaching aid.

I think it's important to remember that she's saying from the start she enjoys video games and that it's ok to critique something you love and say "This aspect is kind of lame, but I can't change that so I'm going to enjoy it as I have in the past, while still being aware that maybe this isnt the ideal."

I appreciate what you are saying about tropes, Calin. I hadn't thought about it that way before. I think the problem is that the damsel in distress trope is quite overused and does perpetuate the stereotype that women are less capable and valuable (as often the damsels have no identity aside from the damsel). But I understand why tropes are useful now.

There are great female characters out there that aren't tropes though so I just hope we see more April Ryans, Chells and Femsheps. And a lot of guys played femshep because of the fantastic voice actress too so it's not like guys won't play as a serious female character.

[kaput]

I want to point out Anita did not disable comments to stifle debate, she disabled them because the comments become a breeding ground for death and rape threats against her. She has had a video game beat em up made of her just for daring to open the kickstarter for these videos.

Don't get me wrong, yes, I agree it is disgusting that people would make such threats against her. Who cares about the beat em up game, but making threats like that against anyone is shameful and should be dealt with swiftly and through the fullest extent of the law. This actually highlights the fact that these sites not policing this kind of thing is kind of backward, really. On the other hand, we have to remember that a majority of other popular Youtubers keep their comments open. They probably get some really bad stuff said to them, but the point is they keep them open. It might not be the best place for a debate but it still allows the author to get feedback from the viewer and engage with them. The ability is also there to delete hateful comments that bring nothing to the conversation. I'll bet also that she has thousands of fans that would stick up for her - rightly so, too.
'Trolls' and 'keyboard warriors' are in their abundance all over the internet. The key is to rise above it? I might be totally wrong but I just like to question stuff like that. I guess a debate is the best place for it! 

Anyway, I felt inclined to go back and watch some of 'Damsel in Distress: Part 3' again. I was a little surprised when she said:

words like parody and satire are often thrown around to describe or defend these comedic depictions of yet more helpless female characters. But a simple wink and nod to the audience, acknowledging the sexist trope while actively reproducing that trope, does not automatically grant a free pass to continue exploiting the trope.

Isn't that the whole point of satire? It's supposed to be ironic and funny. It's supposed to laugh at these ridiculous tropes.

Is anyone actually offended by this? Is this actually a bad thing?

What do you guys think?

[Khris]

I think claiming that saving somebody, who is in trouble and who you deeply care about, is somehow an inherently objectifying act in itself, is just as utterly stupid as lazily basing a story entirely around such one single plot element to the point where it does become objectifying. So, even though Sarkesian means well and talks well and does say many good things, she also talks absurd bollocks on plenty of occasions to push her point as far as possible.

Exactly what I think.

Although I don't blame her, she is giving ammo to the dumbasses who think that feminism equals feminazism.

[Andail]

Whether you agree with Anita or not,  her decision to disable comments on her videos after being publicly funded to make them was/is a pretty 'meh' thing to do. Telling people how it is and closing off any chance of a debate is not the logical nor the mature way forward imo.

Eh... welcome to the internet? Have you seen the comment sections of videos/articles/blog entries that take a feminist standpoint? I bet Anita would love a constructive discussion, it's just that she probably got 99 rape threats for every constructive comment. Which in itself proves that there's a lot of work to be done when it comes to gender equality.

I don't see a need for a "damsel in distress" trope - for a plot device, you can just say that a person needs your help. The terms "damsel" and "distress" have connotations of helpless, personality-lacking but physically attractive female characters whose weakness has made them victimized by men.

However, I'm not sure how much you need to actively work against these stereotypes and clicheed tropes; I believe modern, plot-driven games (or movies or books) will gradually become more gender neutral, as a natural process. Just compare action movies from the 80's with those from today, and you'll see a vast increase in strong female characters.

Ryan Timothy; I'm not sure what you wanted to say with your last post. You admit that you're enjoying stereotypically sexualized female 3d-characters, and therefore... well, therefore what? Do you find the way the game designers have exploited her sexuality (to provide eye candy for male players) a good thing or a bad thing? Please explain.

[xil]

I agree her delivery can be a little monotonous and patronizing, but she's clearly explaining concepts to people that may have never heard anything like this in their lives. Her videos are also designed to be used in a classroom setting or as a teaching aid for parents and kids. They aren't flashy, but they are rich in content and easy to pause and explain and so it makes more sense when you view them as a teaching aid.

Hang on, I actively chose to watch those videos, and I found them boring but pained my way through as I could understand it wasn't all bad. Trying to use a boring video to teach a class of kids about something they don't really want to hear about sounds like a nightmare haha

One point, (which I believe was made by an idiot) which went something like: "If you want to see more games about females etc etc, go and make them.". This rings quite true to me unfortunately, although the point is made in a stupid way, obviously you don't need to go and make a game to be able to argue for games to change. However, surely the best way for her to get her point across would have been to focus (and heavily promote) the games that exemplify her point of view rather than those that don't. Rather than watching the videos and then feeling like playing Mario, she should of made the user want to go and buy Beyond Good and Evil or To The Moon etc.

Totally agree about the comments as well. If anything, turning them on would help prove her point even more.

Isn't that the whole point of satire? It's supposed to be ironic and funny. It's supposed to laugh at these ridiculous tropes.

Is anyone actually offended by this? Is this actually a bad thing?

What do you guys think?

The point at which she started discussing satire was really difficult for me. I don't think she could of got that more wrong, but I let it slide as she mostly stayed on the right track. I think comedy/satire is a completely different discussion and she should of left it out entirely, someone joking about sexism/sexist topics is TOTALLY different to someone on purposely being sexist, unknowingly being sexist or being sexist with intention of hurting someone else, pretty much end of!

[tzachs]

Sarkesian's (and other's) mistake is to assume that tropes are the problem and they represent lazy story telling which I think fundamentally misunderstands what a trope is and its purpose.

I didn't get that from what she said at all. The way I understood it, is that she doesn't think that tropes are the problem, nor that the "damsel in distress" is the problem.
The problem is the overuse of the trope in the context of the society in which we live in.
Since we live in a society in which 99% of the women have been sexually harassed at least once in their lives, where women get lower wages and still considered 'inferior' to men, the trope just enforces this sterotype and takes us a step backwards as a society, instead of going forward.

Isn't that the whole point of satire? It's supposed to be ironic and funny. It's supposed to laugh at these ridiculous tropes.

Is anyone actually offended by this? Is this actually a bad thing?

I don't think the question should be if somebody gets offended by this. The question should be "does this enforce the sterotype?".
I think that the answer is "it depends". If the goal of the trope is the satire itself, i.e to ridicule the existence of the trope, then it's a good thing. But, if the goal of the trope was to be used as a way to make the male player be more powerful, but then the developer added the joke in order not to appear like a jerk, then yeah, not such a good thing...
I agree that the difference is subtle and we can't always know the exact intent of the developer, so I prefer to give the developer the benefit of the doubt.

I basically agreed with most of the stuff she said, and didn't think the videos were boring.
I don't think the situation is as bad as she described it, though, and I do believe we are moving in the right direction, the situation for women is much better than it was 10 years ago (in my eyes), and I don't see a reason the trend won't continue.
However, I do think we as developers carry some responsibility to think of the context in which our games are played, and design our games accordingly.

[kaput]

Well, after a little more research into the extent of what Anita has had to put up with I have to say... I can  understand why she disabled the comments. That's a whole other debate anyway.

The problem is the overuse of the trope in the context of the society in which we live in.

As far as I can tell the examples that she uses to base her argument on are sooo far removed from reality that it's hard to think that they will have any kind of moral impact on anybody. I think the underlining agenda here is to have more female protagonists. I know she claims it isn't, but it just feels so much like it is. On the subject of this, I think we can all be glad to hear that female protagonists are increasing. I totally agree with you that the situation on this is much better than it was 10 years ago - just like equality issues are so much better than they were 50 years ago. It isn't perfect, but it's better. with Anita's help, or without it, it certainly looks like this won't be so much of a problem in the future, too. I don't think that's being optimistic, either.

I don't think the question should be if somebody gets offended by this. The question should be "does this enforce the sterotype?".
I think that the answer is "it depends". If the goal of the trope is the satire itself, i.e to ridicule the existence of the trope, then it's a good thing. But, if the goal of the trope was to be used as a way to make the male player be more powerful, but then the developer added the joke in order not to appear like a jerk, then yeah, not such a good thing...

Agreed.

[selmiak]

I finally started watching the series, but the damsel in the fridge in the second episode made me yawn and I turned it off.
But I like how she always mentions the old Donkey Kong where a giant ape kidnaps your gilrfriend and you have to rescue her and in no way she mentions that this could be inspired by a classic movie with impressive imagery that the videogamemakers might wanted to recreate and might have used as a trope in itself, nope, it is the same old damsel in distress...

She has some points but she presents them very one sided. All the oldschool jump and runs she mentions basically had no story besides the kidnapped girl, that was a way to show how evil your tropeistic enemy is without having to kill someone on the nintendo system and having a revenge plot. And between the kidnapping and the rescuing there was a whole freaking game with no more story scenes, it's about stomping on heads of goombas and killing other enemies and other gameplay elements... I couldn't care less if I play these games as a male mario, a female character, an alien, a robot, a piece of meat, a pixel or a jumping sack filled with more sacks... so in the end it's a marketing decision if mario or peach sell better when printed on T-Shirts and there she has her point as I wouldn't wear a Peach shirt as she is trapped in her trope

[dactylopus]

I finally started watching the series, but the damsel in the fridge in the second episode made me yawn and I turned it off.
But I like how she always mentions the old Donkey Kong where a giant ape kidnaps your gilrfriend and you have to rescue her and in no way she mentions that this could be inspired by a classic movie with impressive imagery that the videogamemakers might wanted to recreate and might have used as a trope in itself, nope, it is the same old damsel in distress...

If you're talking about King Kong, she does in fact mention that movie.  She references it as an example of the damsel in distress in film.