Please avoid (non-sustainable) palm oil and save the orang-tans from extinction

[robvalue]

Hello fellow gamers.

I wish to draw your attention to an issue that has not been widely publicised by manufacturers because of its inherent cruelty.

The ingredient 'palm oil' found in many products is leading to the unecessary extinction of a wonderful creature, the orang-utan.

The plantations to produce the palm oil are being made at the cruel expense of huge parts of the rainforest which is the orang-utans' only home. Vast areas are being cut down at an alarming rate for this purpose. If things continue at this rate they will very soon be extinct just because of the greed of man. It is predicted they may only have 5-10 years left unless things change.

There are two types of palm oil, those from sustainable sources and those that aren't. Sustainable means rainforest is not being cut down, non-sustainable means it is. If the ingredients do not state it's from a sustainable source then I urge you all to refuse to buy the product and find something else, or contact the manufacturer and ask them directly whether the palm oil they use is from a sustainable source. Please be aware that some companies are hiding their use of palm oil by instead listing 'vegetable oil/fat'.

Please do not be a part of this. Please boycott products with palm oil in unless it's clearly stated they are from sustainable sources. It only takes a minute to check but our efforts could mean a new future for these wonderful beings.

Results of my findings so far:

PRODUCTS WITH SUSTAINABLE PALM OIL:

There is a company called 'Fry' which has a range of meat substitutes, they use only sustainable palm oil and have won an award for being a really ethical company. I highly recommend them, and the food is deliceous. They can be found in many health food shops, and here is a link to their website. Suitable for vegans. http://www.frys-special.com

Here are some links where you can buy soap and oat cakes from companies which definately use sustainable sources.

http://www.scousesoaps.co.uk/
http://www.wildaboutoats.com/news/index.html

Hovis bread has confirmed to me that the palm oil they use is only from sustainable source so I can recommend buying their loaves.

Jacob crackers have confirmed that the palm oil they use is imported from suppliers who use sustainable resources so I can recommend them also.

The Linda McCartney range of food only uses sustainable palm oil so I highly recommend them, their stuff is lovely too.

Redwood foods only use sustainable palm oil so I recommend their range of foods.

Vitaquell Organic margarine uses only sustainable palm oil.

PRODUCTS TO AVOID:

Any supermarket-own brands containing palm/vegetable oil. Many have signed up to an agreement which intends to 'look into this problem' but are currently just milking the market for profit and using non-sustainable oil. This covers a huge number of products, please check all ingredients.

PLEASE HELP THIS CAUSE BY LETTING ME KNOW OF ANY FINDINGS YOU HAVE. CHASE UP MANUFACTURERS AND DEMAND ANSWERS. I urge you to investigate the products you buy so you know that what you are buying isn't adding to this terrible problem. Do not accept companies telling you they cannot tell where their palm oil comes from or they cannot guarantee it is sustainable. It is possible to use only sustainable palm oil and know where it comes from, it may cost them more but the option is there.

Thank you for reading. For more information and other ways you can help please visit the links below. Please spread the word.

http://www.foe.co.uk/campaigns/biodiversity/case_studies/palm_oil/

http://www.orangutan.org.uk/

For more positive action, you can contact supermarkets and MPs making it clear that palm oil from non-sustainable sources is unacceptable, and that any palm oil in ingredients must be clearly labelled as sustainable or non. This deforestation must stop before it's too late.

[Pumaman]

I don't think that this is really a suitable place for your crusade.

There are loads of things like this out there that various people think that everyone else should boycott, from Starbucks to Walmart to Breast Milk. But we can't really have them all posting about it here.

I'm sure that this is very important to you, but to the rest of us it can come across as spam, and you should be careful of accidentally bringing your cause into disrepute by having it seen this way.

[robvalue]

It's not important to me, it's important to the orangs who will all be gone in 5-10 years if this issue is ignored, it's rather more important than the other things you mention. All the other forums appreciated me posting this as almost everyone does not know about this. Delete if you wish and I won't mention it again. With the clock ticking for them I've tried to spread the word in any way I can, it's all I can do

[Nacho]

I speak for myself, but it's simply impossible to have a normal, healthy life is you start to ask that every product you purchase is "green" or not. As CJ said, in this case is the orangutan, but about canned tuna it's the dolphins, about pet food is the deforestation of the Amazonas (Apparently yes... The trees are being chopped for creating grass fields to feed the cows, which are going to feed our dogs, cats...), etc... You simply can' t think of it, because then the only apparent escape is to come back to the Middle Age... And sorry... I don' t want that

[robvalue]

No, it's not impossible. I do it, so does my girlfriend and many members of my family. Everything I eat is vegan and from sustainable sources. Every product I use has no animal ingredients and is not tested on animals. If anyone wants any tips I'll be happy to oblige.

[Nacho]

Ok... I don' t want that tips... Thanks anyway.

[Sam.]

Starbucks is great. Just ask Grundislav.

And my tummy.

[Tuomas]

I only use oil made of babies.

seriously, it'd be great to help all those cuddly orangutangs, and of course I'd do everything I can for them. After all, I usually keep an eye on what I buy and then eat. But with my income, I'm not going to be albe to buy all the green +150% price products, so I'll keep buying what's there for me. It's just about how something is cheaper than other. And yeah, I can't see people really having a change of heart after a preaching rant on an internet forum, how well meant it be.

[Pumaman]

I can't see people really having a change of heart after a preaching rant on an internet forum, how well meant it be.

That is a good point. What you really need to do if you want to get your message across is make a YouTube video about the problem, preferably involving an orangutan shedding a tear at the destruction of its habitat, or looking at the viewer with puppy-dog eyes.

I don't think that the "sustainable" argument really works here. Sure, there are some existing plantations that can grow the crops, sell them, and then re-use the same land to grow more crops. They're "sustainable", but they have a fixed level of production.

As the world population grows and people in Asia start to eat more meat, there is more demand for food which the existing sustainable plantations can't supply. So more of the planet's surface area is needed to grow food. You might be buying some sustainable oil, but there isn't enough for everybody to do so, therefore some people will always have to buy the "unsustainable" version.

The only time that food production can be fully sustainable is when the world population stops growing, and people stop wanting to eat more and more meat. And realistically, the human race is likely to destroy itself with biological weapons long before that happens.

[Domino]

For a second, I thought this Thread was about Orange Tang..I totally misread it at first. 

[InCreator]

I choose to remain ignorant.

Not using any oils except vegetable oil, though.

I don't see much point in this thread neither.
Why did I post at all? To remind robvalue that there will be people who won't give a damn and treat this as pseudo-problem of someone who has too much free time. I could adopt a puppy who would be put to sleep otherwise or give all my payment to save a sick baby. Like, immediate action. But doing so remote and effectless things as taking half-hour to read every bottle at the store, no.

You cannot change 6 billion people, or fight against heavy advertisement systems. It's pointless.
If people are scum, the ones that you need to change are richest of those scum, owners of factories.

Can you take them down?
Or are you wasting simply time?

But as I said in the first sentence...

[Moresco]

What have the Pongos done for me lately?  I don't even know any. :/

[auriond]

I actually do know some orang-utans. A particularly beloved ambassador of my country passed away recently (and this isn't even a political joke; Ah Meng was considered an icon).

Yet I'm not so keen to boycott palm oil. I have personally travelled through the plantations of Malaysia (a country which constitutes more than 50% of world palm oil exports) and seen the animals that live in them. Sure, no orang-utans, but there are many other animals that call these plantations home.

Even if we confine our attentions to orang-utans, consider that if you boycott palm oil, it's not going to stop companies from having plantations at all. All you'll basically do is destroy the livelihoods of those who work in the plantations. Could it be that these reports of the imminent extinction of orang-utans may be exaggerated?

I'll let the Malaysians make their counter-arguments:

http://www.enn.com/top_stories/article/6379
http://ceopalmoil.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html

The palm oil industry is a huge part of the Malaysian and Indonesian economies. If the palm oil industry collapses (unlikely), where will the workers go? They'll be the ones hurt the most. And unhappy people means unrest in a country. I don't think civil war would do the orang-utans much good either.

In my experience, I've found that the truth usually lies between two extremes. The orang-utans may not be in as much danger as the worst-case scenario painted by the UN, but of course I will admit that they are a vulnerable species. Still, that's no reason to go on a crusade based on a gut-reaction. It's cool that you're trying to create awareness, robvalue, but be careful not to spread misinformation or one-sided information in the process, and harm those you're trying to help.

edited to add: Malaysia and Indonesia are actually in the process of making their palm oil industries sustainable, but as with all such major efforts it takes time. Again, boycotting them will not help their efforts.

[robvalue]

I am saddened by what I read. I can only hope the other people who read this and who haven't posted will go away and actually think about this. I won't be returning to this thread.

[auriond]

Then I'm sad too, that you are unable to see the complexities of any environmental issue. Geography is my field and these are issues dear to my heart. Boycotting will not solve anything.

[Matti]

Even if we confine our attentions to orang-utans, consider that if you boycott palm oil, it's not going to stop companies from having plantations at all. All you'll basically do is destroy the livelihoods of those who work in the plantations.
The palm oil industry is a huge part of the Malaysian and Indonesian economies. If the palm oil industry collapses (unlikely), where will the workers go? They'll be the ones hurt the most.

This is no argument. It's like saying: Right, we have to keep all the armories and produce NBC-weapons because the jobs have to be saved. I know that this is an unequal comparison somehow but you get the point. The economy just can't be based on destructive ways of production.

I don't especially care about Orange-Utans but about the rain forest itself and every creature livin in it. And if you take a look on what's left of the rainforest, it's quite depressing and doesn't promise a bright future. In 1950 the tropical forest was 16-17 mio. km² large, in 1985 only 8,5 mio. and I don't know what's left nowadays. Being "pro nature" isn't "not cool" or something, it's a fucking necessity for everyone or at least for everyone who has or wants to have children... or wants his children to have children themselves. The saddest point is that we all know about the climatic problems but no one is doing anything. (Regarding politics) everybody talks about it, but it's nothing more than that. It's bullshit without positive consequences. The german Bundeskanzlerin Angela Merkel (or Germany itself) is oddly enough seen as some sort of idol regarding ecologically friendly politics but it isn't more than an unfunny joke.

I predict a future with only "animals of production" like cows, sheep and chicken. But I don't want that.

I speak for myself, but it's simply impossible to have a normal, healthy life is you start to ask that every product you purchase is "green" or not. As CJ said, in this case is the orangutan, but about canned tuna it's the dolphins, about pet food is the deforestation of the Amazonas (Apparently yes... The trees are being chopped for creating grass fields to feed the cows, which are going to feed our dogs, cats...), etc... You simply can' t think of it, because then the only apparent escape is to come back to the Middle Age... And sorry... I don' t want that

You're right in way. Of course the suffering of the rain forest has many reasons. Every chocolate-product of Nestlé will destroy some m² of the forest, every McDonald's burger will too. And we shouldn't buy any clothes made by poor rightless workers in Bangladesh, China or elsewhere. And we shouldn't buy Cola, as its factories in 3rd world nations lets necessary wells run dry plus Coca Cola is aggressively avoiding the creation of labor unions. But as Nacho points out this isn't quite possible.

But I completely disagree to the point that we would have to live like in the middleages in order to produce sustainable goods and having to eat enough. It's just a capitalistic problem (but not a pseudo-problem).

The western world is producing such exorbitant amounts of meat that we don't need at all. People are eating so much disgusting burgers, sausages, steaks etc. and therefore the rainforest is cleared in order to have agrarian areas to put cows on it. Do we need that? Not at all. We could live with less meat, especially regarding the amounts of food we're throwing away everyday.
But well, it's profit maximization. But I don't think it' possible to genuinely change the livestyle of the people, the only solution I see is in politics. Eg. the McDonalds Burgers just could be banned and forbidden and every other good that destroys the source of life shouldn't be produced either. So instead of trying not to buy 80% of the products out there one should organize and protest against corporations, capitalistic ways of production and dishonest/not caring politics..

The indian proverb:

"Only when the last tree has been cut down; Only when the last river has been poisoned; Only when the last fish has been caught; Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten."

..is something people shouldn't forget, but of course it doesn't matter to corporations. But I guess in 50 years or so this proverb will be remembered. Yes, I'm very desillusioned regarding the future.

[InCreator]

I am saddened by what I read. I can only hope the other people who read this and who haven't posted will go away and actually think about this. I won't be returning to this thread.

You're probably missing human element here.

Look. I deny palm oil. Maybe don't eat some of my favourite foods so far, have pain in the heart  for those monkeys, in general, live worse than now. For orangutans.

Same time, a heartless and greedy capitalist in his plantation eats orangutans for breakfast and lives much, much better. He doesn't give a shit.

Why should I do it for him? So he could be even less worried? Have clear conscience? "Not my problem, we have treehuggers for this"
It's his job to figure out how to justify his deeds and reduce damage. Not mine.

We all have 80-something years. In the end, he's lived well and prospered, I've been miserable and worried.
His kids inherit factories and plantations. They will kill orangutans this way or another.

Only outcome is my life being a bit worse. Only. Do I need it? Do orangutans need it?
My point is, fighting the results is pointless and has no far-reaching effect. Especially when problem is somewhere else.

God, I hate capitalism. The voluntary slavery of 21th century. That's my reason to take no more BS from it than absolutely necessary to not be expelled from human race. But I still remain rebellious. Palm Oil ban is not reason strong enough to lower living standards. It simply isn't.

[Pumaman]

I am saddened by what I read. I can only hope the other people who read this and who haven't posted will go away and actually think about this. I won't be returning to this thread.

I don't really think that's a valid response. It's not really on to make a post to a discussion forum, and then storm off and refuse to discuss it as soon as a few people disagree with your opinion. Some valid opposing points have been made, and if you feel strongly about the issue then you should be prepared to defend your opinions and explain why other people are wrong.

If you just want to express your opinion and not listen to anybody's feedback, you'd may as well just make your post on a blog instead where you won't have to deal with opposing points of view.

[auriond]

This is no argument. It's like saying: Right, we have to keep all the armories and produce NBC-weapons because the jobs have to be saved. I know that this is an unequal comparison somehow but you get the point. The economy just can't be based on destructive ways of production.

I agree with that. I'm saying that boycotting palm oil is not the solution because it harms the common worker more than it does the large corporations. Unlike weapons, palm oil is actually one of the basic necessities to some of us here, and the palm industry is practically a way of life. A more realistic solution is to find a way to make sustainable plantations economically attractive to businesses.

I don't think people who call for boycotts of palm oil really understand what they're asking for. Palm plantations are pretty much everything to these people who live their entire lives out there. Rainforests do them no good. Their own standards of living are being raised by these palm plantations. It's all fine and dandy to sit in a comfortable chair and call for boycotts to save orang-utans that you've never seen, but unless these people's realities are addressed, you're not saving any orang-utans OR rainforest either.

[Nacho]

I also hate capitalism!!! Grrrrrr! Greedy way of ruling the World! Americans! Brits! Spanish, Germans... Ain' t you tired of this misery style of life you have?!? Let' s move, we have an alternative!!!

We can be as healthier as the cubans, the north Koreans, the Chinese, the Venezuelan, as the people of Myanmar or Haiti! Come on! We can do it!